Our Origin Story and the Origin of Stories

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Welcome to the inaugural episode of Nightmare

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Logic, a podcast for a community of people that

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love and create horror films and other genre

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films. We’re your hosts, Christopher Smith. And

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Peter Sawyer. And sit with us as we dive into

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a little bit about who we are, why we’re doing

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this podcast, and our project Last Call, which

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we are working on currently. So off the bat,

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I want to ask you, Peter, what are we doing here?

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Like what is this thing that we’re making? With

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this podcast. Yeah, what’s the tell me about

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the podcast? Okay, so actually tell her tell

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her fans about the podcast So basically nightmare

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logic is a podcast that we’ve conceived to create

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in public we want to take you along with us as

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we pursue our own projects in the horror and

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genre space and Discuss the goings -on behind

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the scenes with you know, the different ways

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in which we are approaching Bringing our own

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stories to life Yeah, I think that’s a good way

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of putting it. We chose the name Nightmare Logic

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because it’s something that kind of happens in

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horror movies. And the thing we just shot relies

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on nightmare logic where reality gets blurred

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and things don’t make sense and dread creeps

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in that way. So it just felt like a very fitting

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title for this podcast. Yeah, that’s right. And

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our intent with this podcast is really to gear

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it towards people like us, really, you know,

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people who watch a lot of horror and genre films

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and TV shows and maybe other kinds of content

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like graphic novels or novels, and also are interested

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in creating their own, you know, stories and

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magical worlds or what have you. And with this

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podcast, what we really want to do is shine a

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light on the process of creation. Yeah. And I

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think it’s fair to say that a lot of people,

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when they start making, you know, independent

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films, short films, whatever, they often start

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with horror movies because you don’t need stars.

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You don’t need a super crazy budget. So it seems

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like a very good. That’s right. Entry point for

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people. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Like your creativity

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carries you a long way. with genre films and

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you can really think of a high concept that automatically

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elevates the story you’re telling and can like

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get attention. But also they’re fun. They’re

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really fun to make. So that’s why we’re both

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drawn to it. The other aspect of this podcast

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is that we really want to kind of learn through

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other professional people in the field and through

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our audience, you guys, and hopefully you’ll

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also learn from us going through this process

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and discussing our own films that we’re making

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and the issues and challenges and successes that

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we’ve had along the way. Yeah, I mean, it’s been

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said probably by a lot of people that like the

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best film school is just going out and doing

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it yourself. And you will glean a lot from doing

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that. So we have a lot to share. And hopefully,

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that’s what you’re here for. Yeah. Let’s discuss

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the format of the show. And basically, what we’re

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going to do is we’re going to talk a little bit

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about breaking recent news in both the filmmaking

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and the genre world, the media around horror

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and sci -fi, fantasy, all sorts of things, but

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probably leaning a bit more horror. you know,

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other things that impact creators. And by creators,

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I mean, you know, more like filmmakers in the

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industry at the moment, particularly indie filmmakers,

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because that’s primarily what we are. And, you

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know, we’re going to talk about things like post

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-production, production, sort of the realities

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of indie filmmaking, writing. Yeah. I mean, like

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anything you can imagine that goes into this,

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we will have an episode dedicated that. Yeah,

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yeah. Okay, so you’re probably wondering who

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we are why we’re doing this what you know Why

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you should listen to us. So a good place to start

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would probably be with some introductions I would

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assume so peter Why don’t you talk a little bit

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about what you are what you do in the industry

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and uh in filmmaking? Right. So I am a screenwriter.

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Uh, that’s what i’ve been a really good one do

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well, hopefully I mean that that’s my my thing.

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I guess my lane but uh Recently christopher and

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I shot last call what we’re gonna get into which

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is this kind of ambitious 20 minute short film.

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And I was a director on it and a producer and

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kind of did a lot behind the scenes of that.

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So I feel like I really stretched some new muscles

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with that and got a better understanding of what

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it really takes to produce something. This year,

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I was a production manager on a film we shot

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in West Virginia. A feature horror film. It’s

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a feature horror film. I’m not sure if I can.

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go into depth on it. Oh, you could say the title

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probably. It’s called Camp Triple Moon. And yeah,

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I worked on a commercial. So I kind of like,

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you know, it’s a gig economy. So you jump on

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things here and there. But yeah, and like kind

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of whatever capacity sometimes they need if,

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you know, if you’re not busy doing. something

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that you prefer more. Right, right. That’s how

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it goes, you know? The end goal is, hey, let’s

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make movies, right? And what initially attracted

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you to horror filmmaking or genre filmmaking

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in general? Like, is this something you wanted

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to do for a long time? Yeah, I guess that goes

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back to being a little kid. I was an only child,

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still am, as far as I know. I had to entertain

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myself and… Couple movies really left an impression

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on me. I would say that the first one being Poltergeist

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I remember being a little kid. My dad had a job

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that allowed us to have Cable, so this is probably

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HBO and it’s that scene with a pool and the skeletons

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and I’m just like holy shit This is this is wild,

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right? It just you don’t see stuff like that

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outside, you know, most people imagine don’t

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but I I also loved ghost stories and the scary

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stories of telling the dark books as a kid, you

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know, you’d library, you’d run, try to find the

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books you wanted. And those had just had the

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scariest artwork. And so it was just kind of

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like a thrill to take that home and like have

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it in your room with you when you’re like five

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or six years old, being like, that thing’s going

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to get me. But knowing full well that that’s

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not real. So I’ve always just kind of been chasing

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that thrill, which is what got me sucked into,

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you know. Horror. Yeah, and then where did you

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go from there? I realized I always like getting

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a reaction out of people To this day. It’s still

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something I Tend to do but as a little kid I

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would you know have these play groups and we’d

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be watching gremlins and it’d be the gremlins

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are you know getting wet and seeing bright light

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and it’s this grossest thing you’ve ever seen

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and I would go up and lick the TV screen and

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gets Girls are like, oh my god, I’d be like Ghostbusters

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and the the close -up of the ghost librarian

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at the beginning, same kind of thing kisser.

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And yeah, it got reactions, which I think led

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to liking punk rock because that music gets reactions

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is kind of shocking. And what have you, I would

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then learn how to do magic and I would teach

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kids magic tricks because you do with magic trick

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for someone you’re getting a reaction out of

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them. So all that stuff, it’s like all roads

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lead to like, oh, well, why don’t I just try

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to make movies? Get reactions that way. Let me

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talk pete up for a second because he’s not doing

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himself. Uh a lot of justice here peter, uh when

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I think about your typical like Horror fan and

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fan is not really the right word but just like

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horror obsessed. I i peter is like the person

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in my life that really embodies that he’s got

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full sleeve tattoos and leg tattoos like just

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full of horror movie references and images. And

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he’s got like an encyclopedia, an encyclopedic

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memory of, you know, horror trivia and horror

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films and things like that. So he’s really the

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go -to for horror knowledge in my orbit. And,

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you know, I’m nowhere near as familiar with the

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terrain as he is. Well, high praise But no, it’s

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funny. We there’s a horror trivia night out here

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and man that puts me to shame Yeah, I mean I’ve

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been to that too and there are some I mean, let’s

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face it There’s some really big nerds in that

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but honestly It’s really impressive the depth

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of knowledge like crazy be cuts that people know,

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but you, you’re, uh, you know, you’re still on

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the higher end of the curve. So, uh, you know,

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but Peter, uh, hopefully we’ll bring a lot of

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that knowledge to bear over our conversations

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over the many, uh, years and months ahead. Uh,

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but yeah, don’t, don’t tell yourself short on

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that. You’re a horror master. Oh, I don’t know

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if I’m quite, I’m not just no John Carpenter.

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Um, but yeah, I’m, I’m big into horror. I watch

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a lot of the movies, read the books, you know,

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had subscriptions to Vangoria the whole the whole

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thing that all of us monster kids do. But, you

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know, I was like, you this is going to sound

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a little, I guess, arrogant, but I think it drives

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anyone to make a film is like you see a bad one

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and you’re like, dude, I think I could do a better

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job. Oh, for sure. Or like you just I mean, like

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the thing about horror, too, is that this probably

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resonated with you as a as a kid is that it it

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very much. It’s it’s the genre. that really there’s

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a it feels a little bit homemade in a way. Yeah.

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You know, these days you get a lot of highly

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polished horror stuff, but like a lot of it feels

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like there is a person that made it. Yeah, it’s

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and I think that’s kind of what makes it special

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to like sometimes a movie could just not be good.

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But if you watch it and you see the seams of

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the monsters and all this, like there’s a charm

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to it, especially in the 80s when like there

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was just just this glut of that stuff coming

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out. I mean, I’ll go back and watch some of them

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now and I’m like, hey, no, this is actually kind

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of fun. Yeah, no, I mean, that’s true. So you

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were really into that as a young person. And

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did you go to like film school or did you go

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right into filmmaking? Like, where’d you go from

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there? No, so I did go to Emerson College in

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Boston. I was a writing major, but I was not

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a screenwriting major. But I took a screenwriting

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class my senior year and I really liked it. And

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so that was always in the back of my mind as

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kind of a plan. But you didn’t go straight from

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there into the industry. No, because I was, you

00:10:42.289 –> 00:10:44.129
know, I was playing in a band at the time and

00:10:44.129 –> 00:10:47.049
we wanted to tour and my life was still back

00:10:47.049 –> 00:10:50.330
in the D .C. area. So for the next few years,

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that’s what I did was just fuck around in punk

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bands. And I took jobs like I was a substitute

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teacher. I learned how to do magic tricks and

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I taught kids magic. And to tie this together

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with it, I I would on the last day of magic class,

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I’d be there for two weeks. Kids only like to

00:11:10.090 –> 00:11:12.590
learn what they like. And, you know, a magic

00:11:12.590 –> 00:11:15.629
trick is, you know, a miracle to them. So on

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the last day, I would be like, all right, the

00:11:17.230 –> 00:11:19.769
school is haunted and make all this creepy stuff

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happen. And they would freak out. They’d all

00:11:21.649 –> 00:11:24.460
love it. And then I would reveal that it’s all

00:11:24.460 –> 00:11:27.139
just fake because it’s like movies. Well, part

00:11:27.139 –> 00:11:29.379
of it was to be like, yo, learn how to think,

00:11:29.620 –> 00:11:32.039
question things like that’s such a. Yeah, it’s

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a big thing to do in magicians, I’ve noticed.

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So at what age did you get into filmmaking? Did

00:11:38.220 –> 00:11:40.139
you do that in the DC area or like, how did you

00:11:40.139 –> 00:11:42.559
get to? to where you are. My parents did have

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a video camera and I remember being probably

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12 and doing these kind of really poor stop motion

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things with action figures. I did one of those

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too. And I had a friend Brian who was into horror

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and he had one and I think we made some really

00:11:58.059 –> 00:12:01.299
like, you know, one person me with ketchup being

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a zombie. Right, right. Kind of thing. But how

00:12:04.240 –> 00:12:07.019
did you get how did you get from college to getting

00:12:07.019 –> 00:12:08.879
into film? Like, what was your what was your

00:12:08.879 –> 00:12:11.799
process from there to there? So then I had kind

00:12:11.799 –> 00:12:14.879
of this moment where I’m like, OK, maybe I can

00:12:14.879 –> 00:12:17.279
do monster makeup because I do that for Halloween

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and wasn’t terrible at it. And so I’m like, I’m

00:12:19.620 –> 00:12:21.340
either going to pursue this or I’m going to pursue

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screenwriting. And when I started to. full with

00:12:24.889 –> 00:12:27.470
both of them, all my time went towards screenwriting.

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So I was like, OK, this is a sign. Maybe I should

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go in that direction. Were you in Los Angeles

00:12:31.870 –> 00:12:33.269
at the time? How did you get to Los Angeles?

00:12:33.889 –> 00:12:35.929
Real quick, just for you all following along

00:12:35.929 –> 00:12:38.210
at home, we are recording this and we both live

00:12:38.210 –> 00:12:41.029
in Los Angeles. So that’s where we’re coming

00:12:41.029 –> 00:12:42.629
to you from. But yeah. So how did you end up

00:12:42.629 –> 00:12:46.990
here? So I am married to a lovely woman, Anya

00:12:46.990 –> 00:12:51.690
Sotova, and shout out to Anya. She is a has been

00:12:51.690 –> 00:12:57.820
a She’s a she’s originally from Moscow. She came

00:12:57.820 –> 00:13:00.019
to the United States, has one of the hardest

00:13:00.019 –> 00:13:04.360
work ethics of anyone I know. And she was willing

00:13:04.360 –> 00:13:06.059
to be like, all right, if this is what you want

00:13:06.059 –> 00:13:09.289
to do. Fuck it. Let’s do it. And she was able

00:13:09.289 –> 00:13:12.629
to get a job out here before we moved. And so

00:13:12.629 –> 00:13:14.710
that made the landing a bit better. Yeah. What

00:13:14.710 –> 00:13:18.110
year was that? That was 2012. All right. So you’ve

00:13:18.110 –> 00:13:22.350
been out here now for about 13, 14 years. And

00:13:22.350 –> 00:13:25.129
did you find that transition hard and it was

00:13:25.129 –> 00:13:28.049
hard to kind of like get into the working in

00:13:28.049 –> 00:13:30.950
the film industry more? That’s probably yes and

00:13:30.950 –> 00:13:34.250
no answer. You know, I didn’t think I was just

00:13:34.250 –> 00:13:36.440
going to waltz into Hollywood and be like, Yo,

00:13:36.539 –> 00:13:39.559
here I am. You kind of have to earn your way

00:13:39.559 –> 00:13:43.960
in, but you you do anticipate or you do encounter

00:13:43.960 –> 00:13:46.440
a lot of dead ends that you think might lead

00:13:46.440 –> 00:13:48.720
somewhere. So you meet everyone and you’re like,

00:13:48.720 –> 00:13:50.399
all right, maybe this person will read my writing

00:13:50.399 –> 00:13:53.899
and that’ll open some doors. And now that’s not

00:13:53.899 –> 00:13:58.059
the case. Yeah. So the idea of how people make

00:13:58.059 –> 00:14:00.919
it in Hollywood has been, I think, grossly misconstrued

00:14:00.919 –> 00:14:03.720
over the years. But and or maybe it was like

00:14:03.720 –> 00:14:05.820
that once, but now it’s not. the way you think

00:14:05.820 –> 00:14:09.179
it is, I think. Is there any other aspects of

00:14:09.179 –> 00:14:10.240
like your background you want to share right

00:14:10.240 –> 00:14:13.240
now? I mean, I think I think bits and pieces

00:14:13.240 –> 00:14:15.940
of those will come up as we touch on. Definitely.

00:14:16.259 –> 00:14:19.240
Yeah, those moments. But Chris, about you. Oh,

00:14:19.480 –> 00:14:22.960
let’s let’s go. Fire away. Well, you know, well,

00:14:22.960 –> 00:14:24.360
first, let me I’ll just explain a little about

00:14:24.360 –> 00:14:27.779
what I what I do. Currently, I’m I’m kind of

00:14:27.779 –> 00:14:29.740
transitioning from the documentary side of the

00:14:29.740 –> 00:14:32.899
industry. And as a documentary filmmaker, I was

00:14:32.899 –> 00:14:37.240
directed and produced to globally released feature

00:14:37.240 –> 00:14:39.360
documentaries that, you know, I’ve been on all

00:14:39.360 –> 00:14:41.139
sorts of platforms like Netflix and Hulu and

00:14:41.139 –> 00:14:43.659
stuff. And those, well, I’m sure I’ll reference

00:14:43.659 –> 00:14:46.200
those throughout our conversations. But I also

00:14:46.200 –> 00:14:49.159
do a lot of editing, editing documentary films,

00:14:49.259 –> 00:14:52.320
a little bit of reality TV sometimes, a lot of

00:14:52.320 –> 00:14:55.730
commercial work, a lot of… social content for

00:14:55.730 –> 00:14:57.929
big brands like Amazon and things like that.

00:14:57.990 –> 00:15:01.750
I’ve directed a lot of social media content and

00:15:01.750 –> 00:15:05.470
other commercial work. And, you know, just in

00:15:05.470 –> 00:15:07.509
the last year, Peter and I have ventured into

00:15:07.509 –> 00:15:11.909
this world of making narrative films and something

00:15:11.909 –> 00:15:15.129
I’ve always wanted to do. And so now that’s what

00:15:15.129 –> 00:15:18.110
I’m focused on at the moment. In addition to

00:15:18.110 –> 00:15:19.909
sort of, you know, making a living through doing

00:15:19.909 –> 00:15:22.610
all those other things. Right now, for sure.

00:15:22.710 –> 00:15:27.600
What? Pivoting from documentaries to narrative

00:15:27.600 –> 00:15:30.480
was there Had you been thinking about that for

00:15:30.480 –> 00:15:33.179
a while? Well, yeah, I you know, I had I’ve been

00:15:33.179 –> 00:15:35.120
wanting to make narrative films actually since

00:15:35.120 –> 00:15:39.139
I was 12 13 when I saw movie magic on the Discovery

00:15:39.139 –> 00:15:41.200
Channel back in the mid 90s I don’t know if any

00:15:41.200 –> 00:15:43.539
of you are around listening remember that or

00:15:43.539 –> 00:15:46.360
around to hear it or watch it but it was a really

00:15:46.360 –> 00:15:48.379
interesting show where they kind of got into

00:15:48.379 –> 00:15:51.519
the special effects and note I’m not talking

00:15:51.519 –> 00:15:55.590
about video effects, but like animatronics models

00:15:55.590 –> 00:15:58.929
and explosions and things like that and I thought

00:15:58.929 –> 00:16:01.350
that’s what I want to do at first but Throughout

00:16:01.350 –> 00:16:02.970
high school. I realized that I just really wanted

00:16:02.970 –> 00:16:04.789
to work in films that honestly I didn’t know

00:16:04.789 –> 00:16:06.970
what capacity but I I thought either directing

00:16:06.970 –> 00:16:10.190
or acting so I did a brief stint here in LA actually

00:16:10.190 –> 00:16:15.549
in 2001 and I came here because I got an agent

00:16:15.549 –> 00:16:18.090
which I had no idea how lucky I was because I

00:16:18.090 –> 00:16:20.029
was is actually apparently, you know, it’s a

00:16:20.029 –> 00:16:23.179
fairly hard thing to do and I just wasn’t very

00:16:23.179 –> 00:16:25.360
good at selling myself. But during that period,

00:16:26.120 –> 00:16:28.159
I, you know, to kind of make ends meet, I worked

00:16:28.159 –> 00:16:32.019
on a few sets as a PA and worked my way into

00:16:32.019 –> 00:16:35.039
being an office PA for John Singleton, who did

00:16:35.039 –> 00:16:37.879
Baby Boy’s higher learning. And I worked on Baby

00:16:37.879 –> 00:16:40.820
Boy specifically. And then and then I was also

00:16:40.820 –> 00:16:43.600
doing Grip and Electric on on more indie non

00:16:43.600 –> 00:16:47.620
-union films. And, you know, I had mixed feelings

00:16:47.620 –> 00:16:49.220
about it at the time because the industry back

00:16:49.220 –> 00:16:50.879
then, I think particularly as a grip and electric.

00:16:51.370 –> 00:16:54.350
It was there was a lot of hazing and kind of

00:16:54.350 –> 00:16:57.029
they made it Not as much fun as it could be on

00:16:57.029 –> 00:16:59.190
set, you know, but I actually I was also playing

00:16:59.190 –> 00:17:02.429
in punk and hardcore bands like Peter so I that

00:17:02.429 –> 00:17:05.289
was became my main focus for the next few years

00:17:05.289 –> 00:17:08.329
and I kind of left and didn’t do film for a long

00:17:08.329 –> 00:17:11.349
time So but eventually I came back eventually

00:17:11.349 –> 00:17:14.400
I came back right? Yeah, here you are. Did Are

00:17:14.400 –> 00:17:17.019
you at liberty to talk about any of that hazing?

00:17:17.200 –> 00:17:18.259
Because that’s kind of why I didn’t know that

00:17:18.259 –> 00:17:20.640
was a thing. Well, hazing might be a strong term,

00:17:21.059 –> 00:17:23.779
but they when you’re green, you know, film sets

00:17:23.779 –> 00:17:25.680
for those who haven’t worked on like a bigger

00:17:25.680 –> 00:17:28.480
Hollywood style film set, they’re really it’s

00:17:28.480 –> 00:17:31.440
like an army. And it kind of has to be to be

00:17:31.440 –> 00:17:33.480
to make your day to like get everything shot

00:17:33.480 –> 00:17:37.140
in a day that you need to. And because of that,

00:17:37.240 –> 00:17:40.279
they don’t, you know, suffer fools. And when

00:17:40.279 –> 00:17:41.940
you’re green, you’re automatically kind of a

00:17:41.940 –> 00:17:45.140
fool because you’re new. They know that, though.

00:17:45.700 –> 00:17:47.880
And so what really what it looks like is more

00:17:47.880 –> 00:17:50.920
just like, you know, little little jokes, nothing

00:17:50.920 –> 00:17:53.880
too serious, but also just being really kind

00:17:53.880 –> 00:17:56.880
of hard on you to make sure you’re always hustling

00:17:56.880 –> 00:17:59.859
and you’re always like doing the right thing.

00:17:59.920 –> 00:18:02.140
And like when you make mistakes, they’re very

00:18:02.140 –> 00:18:03.900
quick to correct you and they’re not gentle about

00:18:03.900 –> 00:18:06.119
it all the time. That kind of thing. Gotcha,

00:18:06.339 –> 00:18:08.539
I see. Do you recall the first time you were

00:18:08.539 –> 00:18:12.180
on what you thought was a big set? Well, yeah.

00:18:12.279 –> 00:18:14.339
I mean, my very first time working on a set.

00:18:14.460 –> 00:18:17.740
Actually, it was a short film for an AFI grad

00:18:17.740 –> 00:18:21.740
film. AFI is a film school out here that, you

00:18:21.740 –> 00:18:24.890
know… It’s kind of an industry focused film

00:18:24.890 –> 00:18:27.569
school where a lot of people don’t even go to

00:18:27.569 –> 00:18:29.990
it until they’ve had experience in industry.

00:18:30.250 –> 00:18:32.170
And usually when they leave, they go on to do

00:18:32.170 –> 00:18:35.170
really big things. So the quality of their films,

00:18:36.170 –> 00:18:39.269
student films are quite high, but they are still

00:18:39.269 –> 00:18:42.289
student films. So I worked on that for basically,

00:18:42.349 –> 00:18:44.130
I think it was like $100 a day or something very

00:18:44.130 –> 00:18:48.289
low. But what else was I gonna get a chance to

00:18:48.289 –> 00:18:50.650
be a grip and electric on a set? And even that

00:18:50.650 –> 00:18:54.349
set had like… The crew was probably 30 to 50

00:18:54.349 –> 00:18:55.890
people. I can’t really remember that well, but

00:18:55.890 –> 00:18:59.170
it was a lot of people. But the big, the biggest,

00:18:59.609 –> 00:19:02.210
the first big set, quote unquote, would be right

00:19:02.210 –> 00:19:05.150
after that. I met the key grip on that who brought

00:19:05.150 –> 00:19:09.049
me on to rent control, it was called at the time.

00:19:09.190 –> 00:19:12.130
And it was the Sarah Michelle Geller, I think

00:19:12.130 –> 00:19:16.069
was the no, Melissa Joan Hart was the star. And

00:19:16.069 –> 00:19:20.900
I just I decided that like I wanted to pursue

00:19:20.900 –> 00:19:22.559
the band thing, and when I left, I was like,

00:19:22.619 –> 00:19:24.980
if I ever come back to Hollywood, or if I ever

00:19:24.980 –> 00:19:26.680
work in film again, I want to do it on my terms

00:19:26.680 –> 00:19:28.759
and not put up with that kind of treatment that

00:19:28.759 –> 00:19:32.119
I got on as a grip, you know? What brought you

00:19:32.119 –> 00:19:35.559
back here? I had gone and done a bunch of things

00:19:35.559 –> 00:19:36.960
for a number of years, and I don’t need to get

00:19:36.960 –> 00:19:38.940
into the weeds on that. One of those things was

00:19:38.940 –> 00:19:43.339
going to a film school program in Sydney, Australia,

00:19:43.700 –> 00:19:46.259
and that was in 2005, it was a place called Sydney

00:19:46.259 –> 00:19:48.049
Film School, which… was just getting off the

00:19:48.049 –> 00:19:50.650
ground. Kind of like a New York Film Academy

00:19:50.650 –> 00:19:53.289
type of film school. It wasn’t out of university.

00:19:53.950 –> 00:19:56.789
But then when I came back, I went to university

00:19:56.789 –> 00:19:59.809
for political philosophy and I went to grad school

00:19:59.809 –> 00:20:01.930
for public administration. I was working in politics.

00:20:02.509 –> 00:20:04.670
And then when I was in grad school, actually,

00:20:04.789 –> 00:20:06.869
I just kind of got bored and I bought a camera

00:20:06.869 –> 00:20:10.690
and I made a documentary film, which was supposed

00:20:10.690 –> 00:20:13.980
to be a short and ended up being. feature and

00:20:13.980 –> 00:20:16.599
then that feature ended up getting into South

00:20:16.599 –> 00:20:18.920
by Southwest and you know on Hulu and I ended

00:20:18.920 –> 00:20:21.420
up like traveling all the world to promote it

00:20:21.420 –> 00:20:23.960
and and but bigger than that I felt like I had

00:20:23.960 –> 00:20:27.079
an impact so I was trying to make a difference

00:20:27.079 –> 00:20:29.700
through politics and I ended up doing that through

00:20:29.700 –> 00:20:32.519
film which I didn’t see coming and I thought

00:20:32.519 –> 00:20:35.660
well maybe I maybe I should strike when the iron’s

00:20:35.660 –> 00:20:38.240
hot and get back into filmmaking and focus on

00:20:38.240 –> 00:20:40.500
documentaries, which is how I ended up on that

00:20:40.500 –> 00:20:43.420
side of the industry. And I did that full time

00:20:43.420 –> 00:20:47.500
from 2012 till, I mean, I’m still doing it. So

00:20:47.500 –> 00:20:51.759
it’s been 13 years, 14 or 15 years. I don’t even

00:20:51.759 –> 00:20:54.240
remember. You didn’t say the name of the movie,

00:20:54.500 –> 00:20:56.680
Tiny. Yeah, yeah. It was a movie called Tiny,

00:20:56.920 –> 00:21:00.099
a story about living small, which was pretty

00:21:00.099 –> 00:21:03.779
popular on Netflix in 2014, 2015. It was also

00:21:03.779 –> 00:21:05.779
on Hulu and Al Jazeera America and a few other

00:21:05.779 –> 00:21:10.000
places. And, you know, for that, it was so low

00:21:10.000 –> 00:21:12.779
budget. I did basically, I co -directed it with

00:21:12.779 –> 00:21:14.680
my girlfriend at the time, who were both also

00:21:14.680 –> 00:21:17.279
in the film. So if you watch it, you’ll get to

00:21:17.279 –> 00:21:19.000
know me a bit better. Through that process, though,

00:21:19.000 –> 00:21:21.960
I had to do the filming, the editing, the co

00:21:21.960 –> 00:21:24.559
-directing and the co -producing. And, you know,

00:21:24.559 –> 00:21:26.380
it was very low budget for a feature documentary.

00:21:26.680 –> 00:21:29.339
It was, I think, $30 ,000 all in, and about $20

00:21:29.339 –> 00:21:34.259
,000 of that went to the score. So, well, I would

00:21:34.259 –> 00:21:37.019
also say you were building a house. Yeah, that’s

00:21:37.019 –> 00:21:39.859
right. That’s the insane part. Yeah, I was also.

00:21:40.859 –> 00:21:43.559
Yeah, I was building. So the the premise of the

00:21:43.559 –> 00:21:45.299
film is that it followed me and my girlfriend

00:21:45.299 –> 00:21:48.759
as I built a tiny house. And we use that as like

00:21:48.759 –> 00:21:50.980
a story arc to kind of branch off and interview

00:21:50.980 –> 00:21:53.140
other people who build and live in tiny houses.

00:21:53.900 –> 00:21:57.380
And so I was. building a tiny house and also

00:21:57.380 –> 00:22:00.400
filming myself doing it and also all the other

00:22:00.400 –> 00:22:03.440
aspects of the documentary, the interviews and

00:22:03.440 –> 00:22:05.480
the, you know, profiling other people, things

00:22:05.480 –> 00:22:08.200
like that. So I learned a lot of skills through

00:22:08.200 –> 00:22:11.619
that, honestly. And that’s what enabled me to

00:22:11.619 –> 00:22:14.140
actually have a career. I was, you know, went

00:22:14.140 –> 00:22:17.920
from there and almost directed, did cinematography

00:22:17.920 –> 00:22:19.880
and edited almost in equal quantities for the

00:22:19.880 –> 00:22:23.700
next seven, eight years. And then kind of…

00:22:23.339 –> 00:22:25.339
Leading up to and kind of through the pandemic.

00:22:25.339 –> 00:22:29.019
I ended up doing mostly editing for money and

00:22:29.019 –> 00:22:31.660
I still Directed my own projects on the side

00:22:31.660 –> 00:22:33.400
including another feature documentary that came

00:22:33.400 –> 00:22:37.279
out in 2020 Called current see it’s two different

00:22:37.279 –> 00:22:39.279
words current and then see but it sounds like

00:22:39.279 –> 00:22:41.680
currency. It’s playing words Anyways, that’s

00:22:41.680 –> 00:22:45.259
about illegal fishing in Cambodia So, yeah, I

00:22:45.259 –> 00:22:47.720
mean, you know, docs were my passion for a long

00:22:47.720 –> 00:22:51.059
time, but in the back of my head was always that

00:22:51.059 –> 00:22:52.819
desire to make narrative films, which I wanted

00:22:52.819 –> 00:22:55.680
to do as a kid, you know? And specifically, I

00:22:55.680 –> 00:22:58.279
just loved being transported to other worlds,

00:22:58.339 –> 00:23:01.640
so genre films are still kind of my first love.

00:23:02.279 –> 00:23:04.259
And, you know, as a kid, I read a lot of fantasy

00:23:04.259 –> 00:23:07.660
and science fiction books, so to me, it’s like

00:23:07.660 –> 00:23:10.019
my path and journey has been all over the place.

00:23:10.140 –> 00:23:11.839
I’ve done a million things, but it always kind

00:23:11.839 –> 00:23:14.720
of… comes back to the same things. And those

00:23:14.720 –> 00:23:17.039
things always kind of work synergistically and

00:23:17.039 –> 00:23:19.400
have, you know, honestly, like, I don’t think

00:23:19.400 –> 00:23:21.380
you can go wrong just trusting your gut and following

00:23:21.380 –> 00:23:23.819
your instinct. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. It’s

00:23:23.819 –> 00:23:26.279
it’s interesting because I think this is a through

00:23:26.279 –> 00:23:28.799
line in a lot of ways. But I’ll say punk rock

00:23:28.799 –> 00:23:31.720
is one of those you see some band that you love

00:23:31.720 –> 00:23:34.039
or that just blows you away as a kid. It leaves

00:23:34.039 –> 00:23:36.140
an impression. And then, hey, you want to do

00:23:36.140 –> 00:23:37.700
that. You want to pass that on. Hey, you want

00:23:37.700 –> 00:23:40.150
to get in a band. You want to create that. moment

00:23:40.150 –> 00:23:43.450
for someone same with films right you you see

00:23:43.450 –> 00:23:46.009
some movie that just blows your mind and you’re

00:23:46.009 –> 00:23:48.390
like Man, I want to do that. I want to create

00:23:48.390 –> 00:23:50.430
something and capture it and share it with the

00:23:50.430 –> 00:23:53.809
world Yeah, I mean I definitely gravitate towards

00:23:53.809 –> 00:23:57.369
a lot of creative things in life You know and

00:23:57.369 –> 00:24:00.009
as as do you and and for people like us, you

00:24:00.009 –> 00:24:02.269
know people like you being creative is something

00:24:02.269 –> 00:24:04.930
that we have to do and It’s really just finding

00:24:04.930 –> 00:24:07.859
your medium And oftentimes, there are multiple

00:24:07.859 –> 00:24:10.259
mediums you can work in. And, you know, film

00:24:10.259 –> 00:24:13.039
is probably our primary medium, but we both also

00:24:13.039 –> 00:24:15.619
played punk rock music and played in bands. You

00:24:15.619 –> 00:24:18.119
know, I also went to fine arts high school. You

00:24:18.119 –> 00:24:21.579
know, I did painting and sculpture. But you find

00:24:21.579 –> 00:24:23.519
the thing that you feel like you can express

00:24:23.519 –> 00:24:25.400
yourself and that you’re drawn to. And that’s

00:24:25.400 –> 00:24:28.799
how we ended up here. No, absolutely. So that’s

00:24:28.799 –> 00:24:30.720
what this is all about. It is. And, you know,

00:24:30.819 –> 00:24:33.359
hopefully, like… you’re on your own journey

00:24:33.359 –> 00:24:35.480
and, you know, we can play a small role in that

00:24:35.480 –> 00:24:37.460
just be, you know, even just by being something

00:24:37.460 –> 00:24:40.279
you listen to in your car. But we also, I think

00:24:40.279 –> 00:24:41.839
the underlying message of a lot of what we’re

00:24:41.839 –> 00:24:44.599
going to talk about is that anybody can get into

00:24:44.599 –> 00:24:48.200
this and do this kind of work, but it takes a

00:24:48.200 –> 00:24:52.759
certain amount of resilience and fortitude. And

00:24:52.759 –> 00:24:56.220
part of what dissuades people is that barrier

00:24:56.220 –> 00:24:58.460
to entry, that understanding what to do. And

00:24:58.460 –> 00:25:02.130
we’re going to demystify that. Yeah. just did

00:25:02.130 –> 00:25:05.430
not see my face, but he speaks the truth. And

00:25:05.430 –> 00:25:07.809
if you have any experience in this, you know

00:25:07.809 –> 00:25:09.430
exactly what we’re talking about. And it’s not

00:25:09.430 –> 00:25:12.089
to say that we’re where we want to be. And we

00:25:12.089 –> 00:25:13.769
don’t have a lot of growth to do because we do.

00:25:14.150 –> 00:25:17.029
And part of this podcast is challenging us to

00:25:17.029 –> 00:25:19.190
take our careers where they are now and push

00:25:19.190 –> 00:25:23.849
it further. And doing that in public with you

00:25:23.849 –> 00:25:25.849
and bringing you guys along is part of the way

00:25:25.849 –> 00:25:27.190
that we’re going to keep ourselves accountable.

00:25:28.289 –> 00:25:31.769
and remind ourselves why we’re doing this regularly

00:25:31.769 –> 00:25:34.650
and also share it with people because it’s a

00:25:34.650 –> 00:25:37.730
lonely pursuit. And having people to share it

00:25:37.730 –> 00:25:41.410
with is really important. Yeah, I couldn’t have

00:25:41.410 –> 00:25:45.769
said it better than myself, but it’s a marathon,

00:25:46.750 –> 00:25:49.190
not a sprint. I mean, that’s a cliché, but for

00:25:49.190 –> 00:25:51.309
good reason. Yeah, so in case you guys haven’t

00:25:51.309 –> 00:25:53.369
told now from our intros, Peter and I have known

00:25:53.369 –> 00:25:55.430
each other for a really long time. We go back…

00:25:55.480 –> 00:25:57.839
Think I was thinking about this this morning

00:25:57.839 –> 00:26:00.660
in a year or two from now. It’ll be 30 years

00:26:00.660 –> 00:26:05.339
So like 28 29 years we met when I was I think

00:26:05.339 –> 00:26:07.059
I was either a sophomore a junior in high school

00:26:07.059 –> 00:26:10.140
and Peter was a junior a senior and We were fast

00:26:10.140 –> 00:26:14.380
friends back then And now like we went our separate

00:26:14.380 –> 00:26:16.720
ways for a while not not that we ever lost touch

00:26:16.720 –> 00:26:19.039
But I was living in Colorado for a long time.

00:26:19.039 –> 00:26:23.420
He was in DC and in Boston a little bit and you

00:26:23.420 –> 00:26:26.130
know, we We both ended up in Los Angeles sort

00:26:26.130 –> 00:26:28.930
of independently of each other, along with a

00:26:28.930 –> 00:26:31.809
lot of our other friends from that period actually

00:26:31.809 –> 00:26:33.529
ended up here and also work in the film industry.

00:26:33.589 –> 00:26:37.289
So it’s it’s really cool to see that, actually.

00:26:37.390 –> 00:26:40.509
Like we have a friend named Dylan Markey, who’s

00:26:40.509 –> 00:26:43.150
a stop motion animator for did Robot Chicken

00:26:43.150 –> 00:26:44.910
work for Stupid Buddies Studios for a really

00:26:44.910 –> 00:26:47.309
long time and a bunch of other things, including

00:26:47.309 –> 00:26:50.490
Oscar winning short that he helped animate called

00:26:50.490 –> 00:26:55.650
Fresh Guacamole. We got Elliot. Thompson who

00:26:55.650 –> 00:26:59.170
mixes all sorts of big films, including he did

00:26:59.170 –> 00:27:04.069
Swiss Army Man. He was all set up to do the Daniels

00:27:04.069 –> 00:27:07.230
next film. I thought it was everything everywhere

00:27:07.230 –> 00:27:09.069
all at once. Yeah, he was supposed to do the

00:27:09.069 –> 00:27:10.809
sound mix for everything everywhere all at once,

00:27:10.809 –> 00:27:13.630
but they had to push back the timing of it and

00:27:13.630 –> 00:27:15.309
it conflicted with something else. But, you know,

00:27:15.309 –> 00:27:18.579
I just watched a documentary last night. And

00:27:18.579 –> 00:27:20.900
in the credits, I saw his name for sound mixing

00:27:20.900 –> 00:27:24.220
it. So Elliot’s out here. He actually mixed both

00:27:24.220 –> 00:27:27.720
of my features, including my first one was the

00:27:27.720 –> 00:27:31.660
first thing he ever mixed professionally. Elliot

00:27:31.660 –> 00:27:35.319
did score on the first short film we did. Oh,

00:27:35.339 –> 00:27:37.759
you did the score? Yeah, for Show and Tell. Oh,

00:27:37.799 –> 00:27:39.400
that’s cool. Yeah. He doesn’t really do a lot

00:27:39.400 –> 00:27:42.299
of score now, but… But yeah, that’s another

00:27:42.299 –> 00:27:44.119
interesting thing is that, you know, when I saw

00:27:44.119 –> 00:27:46.039
Ali was doing sound mixing, he was in grad school

00:27:46.039 –> 00:27:47.640
at the time and I asked him to mix our film because

00:27:47.640 –> 00:27:50.099
we had no money and I knew him and he agreed,

00:27:50.420 –> 00:27:52.819
but the success of it… Really, it didn’t just

00:27:52.819 –> 00:27:54.460
help get my career off the ground. It helped

00:27:54.460 –> 00:27:55.940
him get his career off the ground. And it just

00:27:55.940 –> 00:27:58.960
goes to show that collaboration and working together,

00:27:59.740 –> 00:28:03.160
which is what Peter and I are doing, is wonderful.

00:28:03.279 –> 00:28:04.920
It really pays off in dividends for everybody.

00:28:05.720 –> 00:28:09.359
Yeah, I know. Absolutely. So we should probably

00:28:09.359 –> 00:28:11.640
jump into the main topic of today’s podcast.

00:28:12.059 –> 00:28:13.680
And really, we’re trying to answer the question

00:28:13.680 –> 00:28:17.680
of where do film ideas come from? And how do

00:28:17.680 –> 00:28:21.369
you know when a idea is good enough to invest

00:28:21.369 –> 00:28:23.970
your time and money into. And we’re going to

00:28:23.970 –> 00:28:27.190
do that by talking about our experience over

00:28:27.190 –> 00:28:29.910
the last year, creating our 20 minute long short

00:28:29.910 –> 00:28:32.750
horror film that’s called Last Call. We’re going

00:28:32.750 –> 00:28:36.259
to use that as a way to kind of like… open

00:28:36.259 –> 00:28:39.759
up conversations around specific topics. And

00:28:39.759 –> 00:28:42.500
today we’re talking about the genesis of that.

00:28:42.819 –> 00:28:44.920
We should probably first discuss what Last Call

00:28:44.920 –> 00:28:47.299
is exactly. And it’s a 20 minute long horror

00:28:47.299 –> 00:28:50.099
short film. And we’re kind of envisioning it

00:28:50.099 –> 00:28:53.420
at the moment as the first chapter of a feature

00:28:53.420 –> 00:28:56.660
film, which kind of has a number of chapters

00:28:56.660 –> 00:29:00.529
that are all about this. bar in Hollywood that

00:29:00.529 –> 00:29:03.190
is is haunted. And it’s really the place where

00:29:03.190 –> 00:29:06.970
the lost souls of the city kind of wash up the

00:29:06.970 –> 00:29:09.690
people. It’s almost like a purgatory. And so

00:29:09.690 –> 00:29:12.589
this first story that we made the short film

00:29:12.589 –> 00:29:15.970
of last that’s called Last Call is about Wesley,

00:29:16.029 –> 00:29:19.910
who is this? How would you describe him? Somewhat

00:29:19.910 –> 00:29:24.329
of a arrogant, you know, thinks he’s hot shit

00:29:24.329 –> 00:29:27.630
type character producer. does what he wants,

00:29:27.750 –> 00:29:30.130
gets away with it, no consequences. Exactly,

00:29:30.190 –> 00:29:32.690
we all know the type. Yeah, like not someone

00:29:32.690 –> 00:29:35.009
you’re necessarily rooting for, but interesting

00:29:35.009 –> 00:29:37.069
enough that you kind of wanna see where this

00:29:37.069 –> 00:29:39.509
is going. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and so he ends

00:29:39.509 –> 00:29:42.390
up in this bar and he’s there essentially to

00:29:42.390 –> 00:29:45.109
meet a friend, he thinks, but weird things start

00:29:45.109 –> 00:29:47.730
happening. It’s kind of like the vibe of Twilight

00:29:47.730 –> 00:29:49.910
Zone, you might say. Like he starts realizing

00:29:49.910 –> 00:29:52.849
he’s being haunted, I guess, by his ex and…

00:29:52.880 –> 00:29:55.119
By the end of the film, you know, I don’t want

00:29:55.119 –> 00:29:57.619
to like spoil it too much Even though I you know,

00:29:57.700 –> 00:29:59.920
we’ve already kind of spoiled it some but it

00:29:59.920 –> 00:30:02.220
turns out that the bar is not what it seems to

00:30:02.220 –> 00:30:07.579
him and so you know, we kind of made this as

00:30:07.579 –> 00:30:11.299
a proof of concept for the longer piece and We

00:30:11.299 –> 00:30:14.619
shot it in January last year and we’ve been working

00:30:14.619 –> 00:30:17.309
on it Amongst all the other things that we do

00:30:17.309 –> 00:30:20.430
with our lives Editing it and all that over the

00:30:20.430 –> 00:30:22.390
last year. So we just finished post -production

00:30:22.390 –> 00:30:25.390
on it’s totally done and we’re just waiting to

00:30:25.390 –> 00:30:27.049
find out where it’s gonna premiere and we’re

00:30:27.049 –> 00:30:29.289
get planning on doing the festival circuit with

00:30:29.289 –> 00:30:33.549
it and and But but really using it to do the

00:30:33.549 –> 00:30:36.269
feature version. I were both pretty happy with

00:30:36.269 –> 00:30:42.309
it I mean it will get into the whole pre -production

00:30:42.309 –> 00:30:45.480
the writing post -production production itself,

00:30:45.480 –> 00:30:50.539
but it it was kind of a whirlwind. And so when

00:30:50.539 –> 00:30:52.539
you when that you go through something like that,

00:30:52.539 –> 00:30:55.779
we shot it for five days and then it’s over.

00:30:56.019 –> 00:30:59.960
But like it just your brain does not settle during

00:30:59.960 –> 00:31:02.599
this time. Let’s talk a little bit about like

00:31:02.599 –> 00:31:05.200
where the story came from, because so just so

00:31:05.200 –> 00:31:08.460
you guys know, Peter is the screenwriter. We

00:31:08.460 –> 00:31:11.119
co -directed and co -produced it and I edited

00:31:11.119 –> 00:31:16.319
it and But I came in a little bit later. So Peter

00:31:16.319 –> 00:31:20.619
was basically the genesis of the story. And so

00:31:20.619 –> 00:31:22.720
I’m going to ask him a little bit about how it

00:31:22.720 –> 00:31:26.640
came to be and how he decided that this was worth

00:31:26.640 –> 00:31:28.859
making and then how I got involved in all of

00:31:28.859 –> 00:31:30.519
that. We’re going to take it all the way up to

00:31:30.519 –> 00:31:32.160
pre -production, which we’re going to cover in

00:31:32.160 –> 00:31:35.500
a future episode. But yeah, Peter, so where did

00:31:35.500 –> 00:31:38.240
this come from? Where do your ideas for films

00:31:38.240 –> 00:31:41.200
come from in general, but using Last Call as

00:31:41.200 –> 00:31:46.480
an example? I mean, there’s the what if, you

00:31:46.480 –> 00:31:48.400
know, you take what if this happens with that

00:31:48.400 –> 00:31:52.519
and does it sound interesting? So, I mean, ideas

00:31:52.519 –> 00:31:55.880
can hit you in the shower. And I say that specifically,

00:31:55.920 –> 00:31:57.980
you’ve probably heard this before, but it’s because

00:31:57.980 –> 00:31:59.759
we’re always distracted with our phones and stuff.

00:31:59.880 –> 00:32:02.000
You take a shower, there’s nothing distracting

00:32:02.000 –> 00:32:03.559
you, so your mind actually has time to think.

00:32:03.579 –> 00:32:05.559
Well, there’s nothing distracting you, but…

00:32:07.059 –> 00:32:09.779
But no, this one happened because I was with

00:32:09.779 –> 00:32:12.839
a friend, David Delvall, who’s a film historian.

00:32:13.279 –> 00:32:17.099
And he’s sort of a notable person. Like he knew

00:32:17.099 –> 00:32:19.839
Vincent Price. He’s been on all these commentaries

00:32:19.839 –> 00:32:22.940
for movies and whatnot. He’s a bit older and

00:32:22.940 –> 00:32:26.259
he’s got some great stories. But we were in Huntington

00:32:26.259 –> 00:32:28.099
Beach because I like going to the beach and he

00:32:28.099 –> 00:32:29.480
doesn’t drive. So I was like, David, you want

00:32:29.480 –> 00:32:31.400
to go to the beach? Sure. So we’re just talking

00:32:31.400 –> 00:32:34.599
and. I was like, we should shoot a short film,

00:32:34.680 –> 00:32:37.900
we should do something. And he’s like, yeah,

00:32:38.220 –> 00:32:41.140
why not? And I don’t remember which one of us

00:32:41.140 –> 00:32:44.559
said something about a haunted bar, but I know

00:32:44.559 –> 00:32:46.980
he got excited by that and was like, yeah, like

00:32:46.980 –> 00:32:48.940
the Frolic Room, which is a bar in Hollywood.

00:32:49.900 –> 00:32:52.700
And he had the title Last Call, which I thought

00:32:52.700 –> 00:32:55.000
was great, because I always think finding titles

00:32:55.000 –> 00:32:57.240
is hard. And I was like… I’ll figure it out,

00:32:57.359 –> 00:32:58.480
David, don’t worry about it. This thing writes

00:32:58.480 –> 00:33:01.740
itself. Well, not exactly, because you go through

00:33:01.740 –> 00:33:03.720
different drafts before you really know what

00:33:03.720 –> 00:33:06.900
it’s going to be. So I was like, cool, haunted

00:33:06.900 –> 00:33:09.819
bar, I’ll figure it out. So I came up with a

00:33:09.819 –> 00:33:13.240
draft, David liked it, and then he wanted to

00:33:13.240 –> 00:33:15.920
add these kind of Hollywood references that were

00:33:15.920 –> 00:33:18.640
pretty interesting. So there’s a reference, a

00:33:18.640 –> 00:33:20.960
character says, there’s always room for one more.

00:33:21.079 –> 00:33:24.180
That’s from the… Anthology dead of night. I

00:33:24.180 –> 00:33:26.480
had no idea and it’s just a great time a great

00:33:26.480 –> 00:33:29.059
line half the people watching it won’t know but

00:33:29.059 –> 00:33:31.839
someone will Yeah, that’s the thing is that peter

00:33:31.839 –> 00:33:33.759
and david love an easter egg and there’s a number

00:33:33.759 –> 00:33:36.359
of them in here With the concept of the bar being

00:33:36.359 –> 00:33:39.160
this place where the lost souls of hollywood

00:33:39.160 –> 00:33:41.500
wash up, you know, there’s a lot of When people

00:33:41.500 –> 00:33:43.779
are pursuing their dreams oftentimes at no cost.

00:33:43.779 –> 00:33:47.740
There’s a lot of people who get churned up and

00:33:47.740 –> 00:33:49.900
spit out in the machine of hollywood and they

00:33:49.900 –> 00:33:52.559
you know, there are a lot of people who Lives

00:33:52.559 –> 00:33:54.700
are ruined from pursuing this, you know for being

00:33:54.700 –> 00:33:57.000
honest and not to be dark about it But it is

00:33:57.000 –> 00:33:59.599
a horror movie, you know So we wanted to kind

00:33:59.599 –> 00:34:02.240
of like portray that and so this bar is where

00:34:02.240 –> 00:34:06.140
those people have ended up as ghosts essentially

00:34:06.140 –> 00:34:09.420
Yeah, so that’s that’s basically the gist of

00:34:09.420 –> 00:34:12.179
it and it’s it’s interesting because as like

00:34:12.179 –> 00:34:15.739
a horror fan There is not a lot of haunted bar

00:34:15.739 –> 00:34:18.579
movies. You have the shining right? That’s that’s

00:34:18.579 –> 00:34:21.139
the big one near dark has a scene in it. There’s

00:34:21.139 –> 00:34:24.719
feast But it’s not not so much in a ghost story

00:34:24.719 –> 00:34:29.099
besides The Shining. So it seemed like that might

00:34:29.099 –> 00:34:31.900
be somewhat of a fresh take on something. Yeah.

00:34:31.900 –> 00:34:33.840
Yeah. What’s interesting about it, too, is that

00:34:33.840 –> 00:34:38.280
it allows us to explore a lot of different ideas,

00:34:38.539 –> 00:34:42.420
too, and and unique ways of it. There’s a bit

00:34:42.420 –> 00:34:44.480
of a it’s like psychological horror. You know,

00:34:44.480 –> 00:34:45.860
there’s not a lot of jump scares, but there’s

00:34:45.860 –> 00:34:48.219
a lot of like things that appear and disappear

00:34:48.219 –> 00:34:50.760
without explanation and, you know, unexpected.

00:34:51.230 –> 00:34:54.489
Feels off. Yeah, it just feels off. And, you

00:34:54.489 –> 00:34:57.030
know, the longer film that we’re envisioning

00:34:57.030 –> 00:35:00.070
basically traces this bar. It starts at current

00:35:00.070 –> 00:35:02.449
day and kind of works its way back in time until

00:35:02.449 –> 00:35:05.889
you see the beginning of the bar. And a lot of

00:35:05.889 –> 00:35:09.210
the characters in this story are actually from

00:35:09.210 –> 00:35:11.489
early an earlier period and have been in this

00:35:11.489 –> 00:35:15.530
bar. And so as the film. would go on, you’ll

00:35:15.530 –> 00:35:18.849
see a lot of those people and a lot of the references

00:35:18.849 –> 00:35:22.809
in the first story, you start to see where they

00:35:22.809 –> 00:35:25.210
came from later on in the film. So it’s going

00:35:25.210 –> 00:35:27.449
to be really interesting. I’m curious, though,

00:35:27.570 –> 00:35:29.389
you’ve written a lot of screenplays. Where do

00:35:29.389 –> 00:35:32.909
you get your ideas for screenplays? It’s often

00:35:32.909 –> 00:35:36.869
the, I don’t know, the most straight to the point

00:35:36.869 –> 00:35:39.670
answer, I think, is you write what you want to

00:35:39.670 –> 00:35:42.340
see. Like that’s always been kind of a thing

00:35:42.340 –> 00:35:44.780
because I’m like if I like these movies and there’s

00:35:44.780 –> 00:35:46.599
other people that like these movies maybe they’ll

00:35:46.599 –> 00:35:50.719
like this idea that I have for this and sometimes

00:35:50.719 –> 00:35:53.579
you You start writing something and it’s not

00:35:53.579 –> 00:35:55.539
a good idea. You don’t know until you you get

00:35:55.539 –> 00:35:57.900
into it But if you’re you keep going and you’re

00:35:57.900 –> 00:36:01.119
thriving with it, you’re gonna be motivated to

00:36:01.119 –> 00:36:05.800
see it through So do you have a process to sit

00:36:05.800 –> 00:36:08.739
down and come up with exercises to come up with

00:36:08.739 –> 00:36:11.159
ideas or do they come to you? Where does that

00:36:11.159 –> 00:36:14.380
initial genesis of an idea come from? So for

00:36:14.380 –> 00:36:17.139
better or worse, I’m a plot guy. That’s the first

00:36:17.139 –> 00:36:19.300
thing I think of. I don’t think of a specific

00:36:19.300 –> 00:36:24.360
character usually. I wrote a script where I wanted

00:36:24.360 –> 00:36:27.539
to see a vampire home invasion because vampires

00:36:27.539 –> 00:36:30.190
need permission to get into… a how, so I’m

00:36:30.190 –> 00:36:32.050
like, that’s just a very interesting, how can

00:36:32.050 –> 00:36:34.190
you break that rule in a way that works in a

00:36:34.190 –> 00:36:37.150
story? So that was like an idea for another script.

00:36:37.750 –> 00:36:39.929
So it’s like a kernel of an idea that you then

00:36:39.929 –> 00:36:42.610
it kind of like flesh out into more of like a

00:36:42.610 –> 00:36:47.230
plot or story? Yes, yeah. And part of the writing

00:36:47.230 –> 00:36:49.690
that I like is it’s the process of discovery,

00:36:49.769 –> 00:36:51.929
because you don’t have all the answers. You can

00:36:51.929 –> 00:36:55.550
outline, some people do very meticulous outliners.

00:36:55.920 –> 00:36:58.480
I’m not one of them. I will outline how the broad

00:36:58.480 –> 00:37:03.280
strokes I will often You know have that and then

00:37:03.280 –> 00:37:05.760
I won’t know how what the climax is and then

00:37:05.760 –> 00:37:07.699
I’ll be like, okay I’ll jump to the end because

00:37:07.699 –> 00:37:10.539
I know the aftermath and then work my way to

00:37:10.539 –> 00:37:13.159
That and then figure out the climax has like

00:37:13.159 –> 00:37:17.519
kind of a reverse engineer technique but everyone

00:37:17.519 –> 00:37:22.579
is different, you know and So what might work

00:37:22.579 –> 00:37:24.699
for me doesn’t for you or what works for you

00:37:24.699 –> 00:37:26.880
might not work for me So the reason I thought

00:37:26.880 –> 00:37:29.679
this topic was so interesting to discuss today

00:37:29.679 –> 00:37:33.619
was that I also write I haven’t written as much

00:37:33.619 –> 00:37:36.619
as Peter but I’ve you know dabbled over the years

00:37:36.619 –> 00:37:39.519
and have become more serious about it in in over

00:37:39.519 –> 00:37:42.780
the last year or two and I often have a lot of

00:37:42.780 –> 00:37:45.519
ideas, but my mind plays tricks on me I’m not

00:37:45.519 –> 00:37:48.440
exactly sure if the idea is good and even I’ll

00:37:48.440 –> 00:37:52.780
be writing and I’m like Sometimes I’ll be like,

00:37:52.980 –> 00:37:54.500
the more I write, the less I think it’s a good

00:37:54.500 –> 00:37:56.360
idea. And other times, the more I write, the

00:37:56.360 –> 00:37:58.320
more I think it’s a good idea. But there’s a

00:37:58.320 –> 00:38:00.500
weird, and people in the audience might be feeling

00:38:00.500 –> 00:38:04.039
this too. So I guess for you, how do you know

00:38:04.039 –> 00:38:06.420
when an idea is good enough to invest the time

00:38:06.420 –> 00:38:08.440
it takes to write a whole screenplay for? So

00:38:08.440 –> 00:38:11.380
I have one idea that I have not written. It’s

00:38:11.380 –> 00:38:14.739
a very dark, it’s like the bleakest thing I’ve

00:38:14.739 –> 00:38:19.530
ever thought of. Kind of, I don’t want to say

00:38:19.530 –> 00:38:21.849
it gave me chills, but it gave you that lightning

00:38:21.849 –> 00:38:26.570
in a bottle feeling that Ray Bradbury would talk

00:38:26.570 –> 00:38:31.190
about. And you want to seize those moments because

00:38:31.190 –> 00:38:33.710
it’s like instinctual. You just know. You’re

00:38:33.710 –> 00:38:36.170
like, there’s something to that. And not everything

00:38:36.170 –> 00:38:38.909
I write has that. But if I think it’s interesting

00:38:38.909 –> 00:38:41.289
enough, I’m like, maybe it’ll lead to something.

00:38:41.530 –> 00:38:44.090
And often I just trust my gut. I’m like, can

00:38:44.090 –> 00:38:47.130
I write this? And I’ll get through it. Yeah.

00:38:47.469 –> 00:38:49.849
I think for me, it’s like, I start playing mind

00:38:49.849 –> 00:38:52.929
games with myself about like, oh, is this the

00:38:52.929 –> 00:38:56.730
right story? Well, as someone who’s writing primarily

00:38:56.730 –> 00:39:00.130
for me to direct or us to direct or whoever,

00:39:00.730 –> 00:39:02.949
I… often have a voice in my head that’s telling

00:39:02.949 –> 00:39:05.409
me like, oh, this isn’t good enough. Or, oh,

00:39:05.469 –> 00:39:07.769
this is going to be too high budget. Oh, this

00:39:07.769 –> 00:39:10.050
is like good for like a third film, but not a

00:39:10.050 –> 00:39:12.750
first film. Or like, are people going to, you

00:39:12.750 –> 00:39:14.369
know, I think a lot of people can relate to this.

00:39:14.489 –> 00:39:16.269
Like, are people, when I show this to people

00:39:16.269 –> 00:39:18.210
again, I think it’s ridiculous and it’s such

00:39:18.210 –> 00:39:20.969
a vulnerable thing to share a creative project

00:39:20.969 –> 00:39:23.010
and be judged on it. particularly when you’re

00:39:23.010 –> 00:39:24.670
trying to raise a bunch of money to make it and

00:39:24.670 –> 00:39:26.769
all these things. So how do you deal with that?

00:39:26.869 –> 00:39:29.190
Like, do you ever question yourself or like if

00:39:29.190 –> 00:39:31.449
you do, like, what do you do to get through that?

00:39:32.070 –> 00:39:34.750
I mean, I guess I’m not shy at showing my work

00:39:34.750 –> 00:39:37.969
to people and, you know, they’ll tell me what

00:39:37.969 –> 00:39:40.730
they think or I’ll mention the ideas. And sometimes

00:39:40.730 –> 00:39:43.610
people will will like one more than the other.

00:39:43.670 –> 00:39:45.789
And then I’ll be like, oh, that’s what people

00:39:45.789 –> 00:39:48.449
are more responding to. And I mean, I think it’s

00:39:48.449 –> 00:39:52.980
like the high concept. Thing is it jumps out

00:39:52.980 –> 00:39:55.079
at people because that’s why they call it high

00:39:55.079 –> 00:39:58.099
concept I guess because it’s it’s it’s a no -brainer.

00:39:58.099 –> 00:40:02.119
It’s like you look at 30 days a night as a vampire

00:40:02.119 –> 00:40:05.420
Movie or graphic novel or whatever Steve Niles

00:40:05.420 –> 00:40:07.900
did and it’s like yeah vampires going somewhere

00:40:07.900 –> 00:40:10.099
where there’s no sunlight for 30 days Oh, yeah,

00:40:10.099 –> 00:40:12.199
and people were there. That’s fucking brilliant

00:40:12.199 –> 00:40:16.500
that you know, that’s Yeah, well and oftentimes

00:40:16.500 –> 00:40:21.260
high concepts can also Overcome a lot of the

00:40:21.260 –> 00:40:23.480
disadvantages of being an indie filmmaker, you

00:40:23.480 –> 00:40:25.300
know, like if you have a really good concept

00:40:25.300 –> 00:40:30.360
it can carry you pretty far in terms of generating

00:40:30.360 –> 00:40:34.559
interest and also You can have a smaller movie

00:40:34.559 –> 00:40:38.280
But if the concept is unique it shines through

00:40:38.280 –> 00:40:40.579
and and you know, like like the Blair Wish project

00:40:40.579 –> 00:40:44.099
is a good example as like a found, you know a

00:40:44.099 –> 00:40:45.820
time when there wasn’t much found footage if

00:40:45.820 –> 00:40:49.739
any, you know, they’re like came up with a really

00:40:49.739 –> 00:40:54.099
cheap, but creative concept for a film. And another

00:40:54.099 –> 00:40:58.119
good example might be… Are you thinking found

00:40:58.119 –> 00:41:01.219
footage? No, just high concept. High concept,

00:41:01.340 –> 00:41:02.860
low budget. Like Good Boy that just came out,

00:41:03.159 –> 00:41:06.139
right? Good Boy, very high concept, very low

00:41:06.139 –> 00:41:08.829
budget. And horror lends itself to that, right?

00:41:09.389 –> 00:41:12.230
Like, it’s a horror film told from the perspective

00:41:12.230 –> 00:41:14.409
of a dog. Yeah, I mean, I think the cool thing

00:41:14.409 –> 00:41:17.150
about horror is, and this is true, I think, of

00:41:17.150 –> 00:41:21.090
all genre movies, is imagination, right? That

00:41:21.090 –> 00:41:23.690
really, it forces you to have your imagination

00:41:23.690 –> 00:41:28.170
to think of the impossible. Yeah. Yeah, so when,

00:41:28.429 –> 00:41:30.449
have you had an instance, though, when you had

00:41:30.449 –> 00:41:33.750
the project you were working on and you either

00:41:33.750 –> 00:41:36.320
gave up on it? or if you didn’t like how did

00:41:36.320 –> 00:41:38.280
you get through that get through the first draft

00:41:38.280 –> 00:41:40.539
then you’ll see what you’re looking at i won’t

00:41:40.539 –> 00:41:43.760
know until i get through it and if it’s not good

00:41:43.760 –> 00:41:45.699
then you look at what’s not good about it and

00:41:45.699 –> 00:41:48.139
how can i make that better what can be improved

00:41:48.139 –> 00:41:51.320
and if you get other people to look at it they’re

00:41:51.320 –> 00:41:54.320
gonna see it for what it is you know you’re and

00:41:54.320 –> 00:41:55.800
that’s helpful too because they’ll see something

00:41:55.800 –> 00:41:58.400
you won’t definitely i think that’s where i i

00:41:58.400 –> 00:42:00.320
kind of like fall down a lot is like i don’t

00:42:00.320 –> 00:42:02.260
get through the first draft and part of that

00:42:02.260 –> 00:42:04.769
is a function of that i not consistent enough

00:42:04.769 –> 00:42:07.630
working on a draft where that momentum carries

00:42:07.630 –> 00:42:10.190
me through because I have so many other competing

00:42:10.190 –> 00:42:13.130
things as we all do in our lives that I I tend

00:42:13.130 –> 00:42:15.329
to like if something sits for like a month in

00:42:15.329 –> 00:42:17.170
between times I can work on it then all of a

00:42:17.170 –> 00:42:19.510
sudden the doubts creep in so my problem is that

00:42:19.510 –> 00:42:23.030
when it comes to features I there are many examples

00:42:23.030 –> 00:42:25.670
of like times where that break has been kind

00:42:25.670 –> 00:42:28.849
of killer to the to the creation of it because

00:42:29.119 –> 00:42:30.920
I come back and I’m not sure it’s a good project

00:42:30.920 –> 00:42:32.900
anymore and I start doubting it and I doubt myself.

00:42:33.579 –> 00:42:35.679
And, you know, this is, I think, a perfectly

00:42:35.679 –> 00:42:38.699
normal thing for a lot of creatives. But I think

00:42:38.699 –> 00:42:40.159
what you said really resonates with me, which

00:42:40.159 –> 00:42:41.579
is you just got to get through that first draft.

00:42:42.119 –> 00:42:44.579
Yeah, I mean, but there’s also benefits of breaks,

00:42:44.579 –> 00:42:47.260
because if you take a break and then you, you

00:42:47.260 –> 00:42:49.539
know, month and a half later, you pull it out

00:42:49.539 –> 00:42:51.980
of the drawer and look at it, you’ll be much

00:42:51.980 –> 00:42:54.210
more objective about it. You’ll be like, oh,

00:42:54.230 –> 00:42:56.409
this is actually kind of cool or oh, God, Jesus.

00:42:56.750 –> 00:42:59.789
So when you come up with an idea, then do you

00:42:59.789 –> 00:43:02.949
basically wait until after the first draft to

00:43:02.949 –> 00:43:05.530
determine like, this is a great idea or is it

00:43:05.530 –> 00:43:07.769
like, you know, it’s a good idea and you, you

00:43:07.769 –> 00:43:11.389
know, I believe in it enough to get to the end

00:43:11.389 –> 00:43:13.989
or I’m stubborn enough just to pull myself through

00:43:13.989 –> 00:43:16.309
it. That’s not to say every script I’ve ever

00:43:16.309 –> 00:43:19.690
written. I finished. I have an idea that I’m

00:43:19.690 –> 00:43:21.829
proud of, but I don’t know how to finish it just

00:43:21.829 –> 00:43:24.440
because I’m like Don’t know how to get to the

00:43:24.440 –> 00:43:26.519
the ending and I don’t want to like get too into

00:43:26.519 –> 00:43:29.000
it But that’s that’s kind of something in the

00:43:29.000 –> 00:43:31.000
back of my mind. I want to finish it But I’m

00:43:31.000 –> 00:43:33.420
I just don’t have the right answer and I’m more

00:43:33.420 –> 00:43:35.739
interested in other things So bring this back

00:43:35.739 –> 00:43:38.500
to last call then when did you? You know, you

00:43:38.500 –> 00:43:40.099
you’ve written a lot of things But this is the

00:43:40.099 –> 00:43:43.139
first thing that you have put so much of your

00:43:43.139 –> 00:43:47.000
own personal You know time energy resources and

00:43:47.000 –> 00:43:49.800
you’ve decided to make yourself like what at

00:43:49.800 –> 00:43:51.760
what point were you like? This is the thing that’s

00:43:51.760 –> 00:43:55.269
worth doing that for. So this, I guess, kind

00:43:55.269 –> 00:43:58.409
of makes it very specific to our journey with

00:43:58.409 –> 00:44:00.610
this, because if you’re not in Los Angeles, then

00:44:00.610 –> 00:44:03.010
you’re not probably going to have access to certain

00:44:03.010 –> 00:44:05.630
people and all all that that we do out here.

00:44:06.050 –> 00:44:09.789
As I mentioned, David Delval knows a lot of people,

00:44:10.050 –> 00:44:12.050
a lot of people who made horror movies in the

00:44:12.050 –> 00:44:14.010
80s, which is when I came up and, you know, love

00:44:14.010 –> 00:44:17.469
all that stuff. So. He was like, Peter, this

00:44:17.469 –> 00:44:19.949
is good. And he was impressed with my discipline

00:44:19.949 –> 00:44:22.070
to get it done. I mean, it’s not like I wasn’t

00:44:22.070 –> 00:44:23.949
writing a script in like three days, but it was

00:44:23.949 –> 00:44:26.849
like, you know, 20 pages or something. So he

00:44:26.849 –> 00:44:29.210
liked it and was like, we should show Armand

00:44:29.210 –> 00:44:32.710
Mastroianni, who is a director from the 80s.

00:44:32.710 –> 00:44:34.710
He did a slasher movie called He Knows You’re

00:44:34.710 –> 00:44:38.929
Alone. That is where Tom Hanks got his SAG card

00:44:38.929 –> 00:44:42.809
from that movie. So. And Armand also did Cameron’s

00:44:42.809 –> 00:44:46.730
Closet and he worked on Nightmare Cafe with Robert

00:44:46.730 –> 00:44:49.289
Englund. So having like a professional look at

00:44:49.289 –> 00:44:51.809
this was exciting because we got to sit down

00:44:51.809 –> 00:44:54.329
and he told us his thoughts and he was encouraging.

00:44:54.530 –> 00:44:57.469
He’s like, yeah, just keep going, you know? And

00:44:57.469 –> 00:45:00.829
he weighed in on it, had a couple ideas, and

00:45:00.829 –> 00:45:03.170
one of them may have been absorbed into what

00:45:03.170 –> 00:45:07.550
we wrote. So that was like a step of this. And

00:45:07.550 –> 00:45:10.130
then… Well, from my understanding, you… You

00:45:10.130 –> 00:45:11.929
didn’t set out to direct this from the beginning.

00:45:12.530 –> 00:45:16.570
No. I think it was like, you know, I’ve written

00:45:16.570 –> 00:45:19.710
a bunch of scripts, like full screenplays, you

00:45:19.710 –> 00:45:23.809
send them to film contests, screenwriting contests,

00:45:24.510 –> 00:45:27.590
and hey, you place but you’re not first or that

00:45:27.590 –> 00:45:29.650
nothing comes of it or what have you. So it can

00:45:29.650 –> 00:45:31.329
be very discouraging. But I’m like, well, the

00:45:31.329 –> 00:45:33.250
short film, you can just go out and do it. And

00:45:33.250 –> 00:45:35.309
you probably don’t need that much money. But

00:45:35.309 –> 00:45:38.269
I had no ambition to actually direct this or

00:45:38.429 –> 00:45:39.929
do anything like that. I was just like, I’ll

00:45:39.929 –> 00:45:41.929
do my part. I’ll write it. If it’s good enough

00:45:41.929 –> 00:45:44.449
and other people see that, then maybe we can

00:45:44.449 –> 00:45:48.289
figure this out. So last call was written back

00:45:48.289 –> 00:45:51.969
over the summer of 2022. And Christopher and

00:45:51.969 –> 00:45:55.110
I both go back with our friend Zach Kregger,

00:45:55.170 –> 00:45:57.150
who probably doesn’t need an introduction at

00:45:57.150 –> 00:46:00.469
this point. But he is a director who’s done Barbarian

00:46:00.469 –> 00:46:04.460
and weapons now. And Barbarian was coming out.

00:46:04.539 –> 00:46:06.139
And so I told Zach, I was like, hey, you should

00:46:06.139 –> 00:46:08.000
come out to horror trivia. You can play on our

00:46:08.000 –> 00:46:09.539
team. You’ll have fun. And it’s a good way to

00:46:09.539 –> 00:46:11.719
promote your movie. And I was hoping that it

00:46:11.719 –> 00:46:14.380
was before the movie came out, but it was right

00:46:14.380 –> 00:46:17.440
after. But neither here nor there. So I meet

00:46:17.440 –> 00:46:19.239
with Zach beforehand, and I’m telling him about

00:46:19.239 –> 00:46:23.000
this last call. And I’m excited about it for

00:46:23.000 –> 00:46:25.539
whatever reason. And he’s like, well, yeah, you

00:46:25.539 –> 00:46:28.210
should direct it. And I’m like, Wait, what? I

00:46:28.210 –> 00:46:31.949
don’t know what I’m doing. Time flies and we

00:46:31.949 –> 00:46:33.690
get to a point where we’re like, all right, well,

00:46:33.690 –> 00:46:37.250
why don’t we do a table read with actors and

00:46:37.250 –> 00:46:39.250
test drive this and see what it like what it’s

00:46:39.250 –> 00:46:41.670
really like reading it with people. So then,

00:46:41.670 –> 00:46:46.090
Chris, you and me and David, we got a location

00:46:46.090 –> 00:46:48.050
where we could do this. God damn it. I’m going

00:46:48.050 –> 00:46:51.650
to keep calling you that, man. I’m sorry. So.

00:46:52.380 –> 00:46:54.960
Christopher, you, me, David, we got this oak

00:46:54.960 –> 00:46:57.840
sludge and got some actors to read it. And we

00:46:57.840 –> 00:47:01.739
thought the table read went pretty well, which

00:47:01.739 –> 00:47:04.519
was that was a lot of fun, actually. Yeah. In

00:47:04.519 –> 00:47:06.780
fact, maybe we’ll put it at some point. We’ll

00:47:06.780 –> 00:47:09.340
put up a link to the video. We filmed that just

00:47:09.340 –> 00:47:13.869
to, you know, for posterity sake. So we do that.

00:47:13.989 –> 00:47:18.809
And then Jesse Merlin shares the script with

00:47:18.809 –> 00:47:23.530
director Brian Usna, who he did the movie Society.

00:47:23.909 –> 00:47:27.010
He’s produced a lot of Stuart Gordon stuff. He

00:47:27.010 –> 00:47:29.570
redacted Return of the Living Dead 3. So then

00:47:29.570 –> 00:47:31.670
for Jesse’s birthday, I meet Brian and I talked

00:47:31.670 –> 00:47:35.610
to him about this. He was like, it’s a cool script.

00:47:35.769 –> 00:47:39.050
But if it’s you guys should do a anthology because

00:47:39.050 –> 00:47:40.909
you’re not going to raise money for a short film.

00:47:41.559 –> 00:47:44.780
So noted. But Brian was very gracious with his

00:47:44.780 –> 00:47:47.639
time, you know, answering all my questions and

00:47:47.639 –> 00:47:50.980
stuff. It was great. He’s a solid guy. At some

00:47:50.980 –> 00:47:53.099
point, and I don’t know if this was before or

00:47:53.099 –> 00:47:55.320
after it, I think it was after it, we decide,

00:47:55.400 –> 00:47:58.179
well, why don’t we shoot a little teaser for

00:47:58.179 –> 00:48:02.440
this? And so our friend Dano let us use his place

00:48:02.440 –> 00:48:04.900
and we got Jesse in there and we did this kind

00:48:04.900 –> 00:48:08.889
of Floating torso creepy bartender thing. It

00:48:08.889 –> 00:48:11.510
was it was modeled after a lot of like early

00:48:11.510 –> 00:48:14.550
80s horror teasers It doesn’t reveal anything

00:48:14.550 –> 00:48:16.690
about the plot. It’s just a creepy like oh shit.

00:48:16.710 –> 00:48:20.110
What is this kind of thing? so we shot that and

00:48:20.110 –> 00:48:24.070
I guess we directed that together and David showed

00:48:24.070 –> 00:48:27.469
it to one of his friends who then was like yo

00:48:27.469 –> 00:48:30.710
if Peter did this you should just have him direct

00:48:30.710 –> 00:48:34.250
the thing where Christopher comes in is prior

00:48:34.250 –> 00:48:38.730
to this Think I’d written with you or for you

00:48:38.730 –> 00:48:42.329
a short film called who not who goes. Yeah, it’s

00:48:42.329 –> 00:48:44.630
called Well, we had a couple different names,

00:48:44.630 –> 00:48:47.630
but I think it ended up being either I think

00:48:47.630 –> 00:48:51.030
was grief was grief or this to shall pass. Oh,

00:48:51.070 –> 00:48:53.449
yeah Delight the final name was this to shall

00:48:53.449 –> 00:48:55.929
pass which we should do Maybe we do an episode

00:48:55.929 –> 00:48:58.030
on that because it was kind of fun. I was like

00:48:58.030 –> 00:48:59.809
Christopher Well, maybe this will be good opportunity

00:48:59.809 –> 00:49:02.190
us to work together. We could co -direct this

00:49:02.190 –> 00:49:06.139
do you know it’d be a fun thing to do. And so

00:49:06.139 –> 00:49:10.079
I was like, if I bring Christopher into this,

00:49:10.420 –> 00:49:12.679
you know, I know he will put his all into it

00:49:12.679 –> 00:49:14.659
the way I will. It’s an opportunity for both

00:49:14.659 –> 00:49:17.920
of us to do something together. And you know,

00:49:18.039 –> 00:49:20.219
we’ve known each other for so long as we as we

00:49:20.219 –> 00:49:23.079
discussed earlier that I think like, perhaps

00:49:23.079 –> 00:49:28.590
that just feels like a more a more safe. to be

00:49:28.590 –> 00:49:33.309
creative in, and I agree. So that kind of was

00:49:33.309 –> 00:49:35.329
like, okay, we’re gonna try to make this. And

00:49:35.329 –> 00:49:41.809
then we fast forward a few months. I mean, it’s

00:49:41.809 –> 00:49:44.030
all kind of a blur, because this isn’t just something

00:49:44.030 –> 00:49:45.190
we wrote and then we’re like, all right, let’s

00:49:45.190 –> 00:49:47.889
go shoot this. This was like a very strange,

00:49:48.050 –> 00:49:50.750
unique process, I think. Which I think is actually

00:49:50.750 –> 00:49:54.880
pretty common for a lot of indie projects, particularly…

00:49:54.880 –> 00:49:57.039
you know, first or second or third films, you

00:49:57.039 –> 00:50:00.559
know, that are… They kind of have a life of

00:50:00.559 –> 00:50:03.480
their own and find their own way to the screen.

00:50:04.760 –> 00:50:07.659
Yeah. From my perspective, you know, Peter called

00:50:07.659 –> 00:50:09.739
me up one day and was just like, hey, I’ve been

00:50:09.739 –> 00:50:12.420
working on this project with David and we have

00:50:12.420 –> 00:50:14.980
what we think is something that could be really

00:50:14.980 –> 00:50:18.679
special. And, you know, I’ve been encouraged

00:50:18.679 –> 00:50:21.980
to direct this and I don’t know that I feel like

00:50:21.980 –> 00:50:24.550
I have enough experience to… to do it alone.

00:50:24.949 –> 00:50:27.969
And I thought it’d be fun to do it with you.

00:50:28.250 –> 00:50:29.489
Is this something that you might be interested

00:50:29.489 –> 00:50:32.349
in? And I was like, you know, I heard what it

00:50:32.349 –> 00:50:34.369
was and I thought it was really cool, but mostly

00:50:34.369 –> 00:50:37.150
I just wanted to work with Peter. And, you know,

00:50:37.210 –> 00:50:39.570
it was a chance to work with a team of people

00:50:39.570 –> 00:50:41.409
to do a narrative film, which I had been interested

00:50:41.409 –> 00:50:44.889
in getting into. So, you know, I quickly joined

00:50:44.889 –> 00:50:48.949
up and, you know, we kind of set out on this

00:50:48.949 –> 00:50:55.559
weird kind of Odyssey you might say like this

00:50:55.559 –> 00:50:58.760
journey that took us all sorts of places because

00:50:58.760 –> 00:51:02.019
you know, we had the short film and You know,

00:51:02.019 –> 00:51:04.420
we started kind of talking to people we knew

00:51:04.420 –> 00:51:06.679
that were producers and other people in the industry

00:51:06.679 –> 00:51:10.440
and You know some of their suggestions and you

00:51:10.440 –> 00:51:12.000
know if anybody who works in industry knows that

00:51:12.000 –> 00:51:14.900
everybody has like an opinion about how to do

00:51:14.900 –> 00:51:17.440
something and there’s 40 different ways to do

00:51:17.440 –> 00:51:19.679
something and so, you know when you’re asking

00:51:19.679 –> 00:51:23.289
for advice, you’re gonna hear 40 different pieces

00:51:23.289 –> 00:51:25.969
of advice on how to do it and you know, so we

00:51:25.969 –> 00:51:30.070
kind of tried a few things we we had some table

00:51:30.070 –> 00:51:33.389
reads we did a An early on table read and then

00:51:33.389 –> 00:51:35.769
we did a more produced table read where we actually

00:51:35.769 –> 00:51:38.929
had an audience and we had sound effects and

00:51:38.929 –> 00:51:41.650
actors Really performing it and that was a really

00:51:41.650 –> 00:51:46.190
fun experience Well that that also that was also

00:51:46.190 –> 00:51:49.849
sort of like a hopeful fundraiser that did not.

00:51:50.210 –> 00:51:52.289
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, you know, and the funding

00:51:52.289 –> 00:51:54.909
is always throughout this whole process was was

00:51:54.909 –> 00:51:57.210
the topic conversation. And, you know, that’s

00:51:57.210 –> 00:51:59.949
also a topic of conversation for another podcast.

00:52:00.210 –> 00:52:03.429
But, you know, we what you know, when we were

00:52:03.429 –> 00:52:05.010
trying to figure out how to bring this to the

00:52:05.010 –> 00:52:07.610
screen, you know, we had different ideas at different

00:52:07.610 –> 00:52:09.849
periods. And, you know, one of that was doing

00:52:09.849 –> 00:52:13.530
some just grassroots fundraising by doing this

00:52:13.530 –> 00:52:16.110
table read. That was kind of a stage play. And

00:52:16.110 –> 00:52:20.639
then we also looked at you know working with

00:52:20.639 –> 00:52:24.039
producers and just making the the feature version

00:52:24.039 –> 00:52:29.019
of this from the beginning and that we Spent

00:52:29.019 –> 00:52:30.679
some time spinning our wheels on we had some

00:52:30.679 –> 00:52:32.059
interest actually. We talked to a lot of good

00:52:32.059 –> 00:52:35.760
producers that um Whether they’re smaller producers,

00:52:35.800 –> 00:52:37.980
but they had done several feature films and they

00:52:37.980 –> 00:52:41.599
were interested So it’s this circuitous route

00:52:41.599 –> 00:52:44.480
to getting to the point where we just decided

00:52:44.480 –> 00:52:48.190
to say screw it we’re gonna Try to you know,

00:52:48.230 –> 00:52:50.590
just raise enough money to do the first story

00:52:50.590 –> 00:52:53.590
and we did that through friends and family Which

00:52:53.590 –> 00:52:57.150
is actually not I don’t want to oversell that

00:52:57.150 –> 00:52:58.530
it’s the thing that a lot of people can’t do

00:52:58.530 –> 00:53:04.329
but also it isn’t easy to do for anyone and You

00:53:04.329 –> 00:53:06.829
know, but we just believed in it and and we had

00:53:06.829 –> 00:53:08.530
enough momentum at this point that we were able

00:53:08.530 –> 00:53:11.369
to get enough Money together to actually film

00:53:11.369 –> 00:53:13.730
the first story, which is basically what we ended

00:53:13.730 –> 00:53:17.909
up doing so We just wanted to kind of like give

00:53:17.909 –> 00:53:20.869
you the brief introduction of how the idea came

00:53:20.869 –> 00:53:25.570
and how we kind of decided to run with it. And

00:53:25.570 –> 00:53:29.309
then that kind of intro phase leading up to the

00:53:29.309 –> 00:53:30.610
point where we actually did pre -production on

00:53:30.610 –> 00:53:34.789
the short. Yeah. I mean, that in itself was a

00:53:34.789 –> 00:53:38.130
journey, but that was just to get to the starting

00:53:38.130 –> 00:53:40.809
point. Exactly. That’s the funny thing is like,

00:53:40.909 –> 00:53:43.829
I mean… You and David talked about this in

00:53:43.829 –> 00:53:46.349
the summer of 2022, and we actually filmed it

00:53:46.349 –> 00:53:51.789
in January of 2024. So almost… 2025. My goodness.

00:53:53.369 –> 00:53:56.429
2025, wow, I lost the year. So, you know, two

00:53:56.429 –> 00:54:00.309
and a half years later, basically. And we were

00:54:00.309 –> 00:54:02.210
working regularly on it through that whole period.

00:54:02.409 –> 00:54:05.590
And it doesn’t have to take that long, but the

00:54:05.590 –> 00:54:08.449
trick is almost always is the fundraising. And

00:54:08.449 –> 00:54:12.940
it took us that long to figure out… how we

00:54:12.940 –> 00:54:14.500
were gonna fundraise, where to get the money

00:54:14.500 –> 00:54:18.260
from and actually get it. But what’s really interesting

00:54:18.260 –> 00:54:20.800
about that was when we just decided that we were

00:54:20.800 –> 00:54:22.679
gonna make it no matter what, we figured it out.

00:54:22.719 –> 00:54:25.179
But I think you just have to decide to do it

00:54:25.179 –> 00:54:28.300
and be unstoppable and things will fall into

00:54:28.300 –> 00:54:31.159
place. It might not be entirely what you want

00:54:31.159 –> 00:54:34.300
or what you envision, but it will. And that’s

00:54:34.300 –> 00:54:36.239
ultimately what we had to do is just trust that

00:54:36.239 –> 00:54:40.340
process. Yeah, I know. Very well put. And I will

00:54:40.340 –> 00:54:42.460
say, and we’ll touch on this later, but it’s

00:54:42.460 –> 00:54:44.800
worth noting, like, when Chris and I were working

00:54:44.800 –> 00:54:47.179
on this, it’s like we were scouting locations,

00:54:47.340 –> 00:54:49.739
trying to find, like, what we could afford within

00:54:49.739 –> 00:54:52.460
our budget that made the most sense. And so that

00:54:52.460 –> 00:54:54.840
also takes a lot of time. Exactly. You know,

00:54:54.920 –> 00:54:56.440
really figuring out what the lowest we could

00:54:56.440 –> 00:55:00.460
make it for and that meets our vision. was a

00:55:00.460 –> 00:55:02.500
process, you know, and, you know, we could have

00:55:02.500 –> 00:55:04.300
maybe done it faster, but like we were learning

00:55:04.300 –> 00:55:07.679
about the best way to approach it. And luckily,

00:55:07.699 –> 00:55:11.119
it worked out for us so far and we hope it continues

00:55:11.119 –> 00:55:13.420
to work out. So that’s probably a good place

00:55:13.420 –> 00:55:15.679
to leave it. But before we go, is there any last

00:55:15.679 –> 00:55:19.099
things that you want to say or any or any any

00:55:19.099 –> 00:55:21.960
things that you’d like to plug? Like got any

00:55:21.960 –> 00:55:23.960
projects, any films you’re excited about? What

00:55:23.960 –> 00:55:27.619
do you what do you got? Yeah, I guess I got something

00:55:27.619 –> 00:55:31.210
that I can talk about. Uh, so david delvall invited

00:55:31.210 –> 00:55:36.170
me to do a commentary For a film called nightlife

00:55:36.170 –> 00:55:39.710
like a dvd extra. Yeah, like a blu -ray Um from

00:55:39.710 –> 00:55:42.949
this 1989 vampire comedy called nightlife. It’s

00:55:42.949 –> 00:55:46.230
not the zombie one with scott grimes and john

00:55:46.230 –> 00:55:49.090
astin It’s a different made for tv movie and

00:55:49.090 –> 00:55:52.510
it was actually pretty fun to watch. Um So we

00:55:52.510 –> 00:55:55.510
just recorded that uh last week and so I got

00:55:55.510 –> 00:56:00.000
that coming out. Um soon. So if you want to hear

00:56:00.000 –> 00:56:02.960
me and David who we’re going to have on here

00:56:02.960 –> 00:56:06.460
at some point babble on about vampires and all

00:56:06.460 –> 00:56:09.940
this type of stuff that that could be fun. And

00:56:09.940 –> 00:56:13.079
I learned something interesting. This is completely

00:56:13.079 –> 00:56:16.059
random but it just was kind of blew my mind.

00:56:16.679 –> 00:56:19.500
You can find me on letterbox if you don’t know

00:56:19.500 –> 00:56:24.019
what letterbox is. It is kind of like a platform

00:56:24.019 –> 00:56:27.369
to Log all the movies you’ve seen and it’s somewhat

00:56:27.369 –> 00:56:30.110
of a social media platform But it’s a bit different

00:56:30.110 –> 00:56:33.289
than what you’d expect and so I was just like

00:56:33.289 –> 00:56:36.070
looking at how many movies I’ve watched on there

00:56:36.070 –> 00:56:38.110
and I was like, well how many movies were made

00:56:38.110 –> 00:56:43.250
in the 80s and it was over 60 ,000 movies I don’t

00:56:43.250 –> 00:56:46.929
know if I know anyone who’s seen 60 ,000 movies,

00:56:46.929 –> 00:56:50.550
but it puts a perspective of how many damn films

00:56:50.550 –> 00:56:54.289
there are in the 80s, you know, actually I did

00:56:54.289 –> 00:56:57.199
a When my first film was doing the festival circuit,

00:56:57.420 –> 00:57:01.079
I was invited to this filmmakers forum and this

00:57:01.079 –> 00:57:03.579
kind of well -known indie producer, Ted Hope,

00:57:04.119 –> 00:57:07.079
was giving the keynote. And I remember a little

00:57:07.079 –> 00:57:09.139
factoid that he gave us in that, and this is

00:57:09.139 –> 00:57:12.159
2013, but he said last year, which would have

00:57:12.159 –> 00:57:17.280
been 2012, 50 ,000 short films were made. And

00:57:17.280 –> 00:57:19.579
I’m sure that number’s only gone up because the

00:57:19.579 –> 00:57:23.099
democratization of filmmaking has marched on

00:57:23.099 –> 00:57:26.539
and the barrier to entry is so low now. So there’s

00:57:26.539 –> 00:57:28.300
a lot of short films out there. There’s a lot

00:57:28.300 –> 00:57:31.260
of films, like Peter’s saying, but even more

00:57:31.260 –> 00:57:36.039
short films. And most of them are never see the

00:57:36.039 –> 00:57:39.059
light of day, never find distribution. But, well,

00:57:39.059 –> 00:57:43.559
with YouTube now, they can. But yeah, that’s

00:57:43.559 –> 00:57:46.789
interesting. Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot to see,

00:57:46.969 –> 00:57:51.869
guys. Yeah, and I guess for me, my parting thoughts

00:57:51.869 –> 00:57:54.329
is I’m in the middle. Well, I just finished the

00:57:54.329 –> 00:57:56.530
most recent episode of Stranger Things. We’re

00:57:56.530 –> 00:57:59.610
recording this. The final episode is dropping

00:57:59.610 –> 00:58:03.090
tomorrow, but honestly, not a big fan of this

00:58:03.090 –> 00:58:06.840
season. I’ll leave it at that. If you want to

00:58:06.840 –> 00:58:10.280
follow me on Letterboxd, my name is GlassBlood

00:58:10.280 –> 00:58:12.300
on there. Don’t ask. I don’t know what the hell

00:58:12.300 –> 00:58:14.219
I was thinking when I came up with that. I know

00:58:14.219 –> 00:58:18.579
what you were thinking. You’re drunk. Yeah, and,

00:58:18.579 –> 00:58:20.420
you know, I’m not on Letterboxd, although I probably

00:58:20.420 –> 00:58:22.920
join sometime. Peter, any last thoughts or final

00:58:22.920 –> 00:58:26.019
words or film recommendations that you want to

00:58:26.019 –> 00:58:29.260
leave? Yeah, I think it might be fun to leave

00:58:29.260 –> 00:58:32.460
every episode with a film recommendation for

00:58:32.460 –> 00:58:36.760
those who are craving something. I’m going to

00:58:36.760 –> 00:58:40.739
say this movie because it blew my mind and I

00:58:40.739 –> 00:58:42.960
tell everyone to watch it, even though it’s not

00:58:42.960 –> 00:58:46.860
suitable for everyone. But it’s just a rare beast.

00:58:47.500 –> 00:58:50.260
And, you know, as you get older, it’s harder

00:58:50.260 –> 00:58:52.639
to impress you like it just is because you’ve

00:58:52.639 –> 00:58:57.900
seen so much. But it’s a 1990. 2 .9193 Australian

00:58:57.900 –> 00:59:02.219
film, Bad Boy Bubby. It is insane. I think they

00:59:02.219 –> 00:59:08.420
used 32 DPs to create every sequence for Bubby.

00:59:08.420 –> 00:59:11.860
Every scene is shot by a different one. But basically

00:59:11.860 –> 00:59:16.320
the premise is this guy is a 30 -year -old living

00:59:16.320 –> 00:59:20.760
with his mom in a very depressing apartment that’s

00:59:20.760 –> 00:59:24.920
like concrete and the most screwed up shit. happens

00:59:24.920 –> 00:59:27.880
to him but she has told him he can’t go outside

00:59:27.880 –> 00:59:29.739
because he needs a gas mask and there’s only

00:59:29.739 –> 00:59:32.599
one gas mask to use so she’ll leave and leave

00:59:32.599 –> 00:59:36.219
him there and he kind of figures out a way to

00:59:36.219 –> 00:59:38.780
get out at some point and the movie just keeps

00:59:38.780 –> 00:59:43.880
changing but it’s it’s disturbing it’s hilarious

00:59:43.880 –> 00:59:46.780
and it’s endearing and it’s such a rare movie

00:59:46.780 –> 00:59:50.460
if you’ve never heard of it just just go and

00:59:50.460 –> 00:59:54.519
blind because It will blow your mind. I’ve recommended

00:59:54.519 –> 00:59:56.380
it to people and we sent screenshots with their

00:59:56.380 –> 00:59:59.139
jaws dropped. I haven’t seen it. I’m going to

00:59:59.139 –> 01:00:01.400
have to like check that one out. High praise,

01:00:01.619 –> 01:00:05.260
but it is taboo. It’s dark, but it’s also endearing

01:00:05.260 –> 01:00:09.019
and hilarious. Nice. I’m going to go ahead and

01:00:09.019 –> 01:00:10.960
recommend something you recommended to me this

01:00:10.960 –> 01:00:14.659
week, which is ghost stories for a lot of you

01:00:14.659 –> 01:00:18.170
might be familiar with this, but Ghost Stories

01:00:18.170 –> 01:00:21.170
is a British horror film that’s directed by Jeremy

01:00:21.170 –> 01:00:24.449
Dyson and Andy Nyman from like 2017, I want to

01:00:24.449 –> 01:00:26.329
say. It’s really interesting because, you know,

01:00:26.349 –> 01:00:29.110
it’s on my mind because we are currently making

01:00:29.110 –> 01:00:32.530
a, you know, a feature film that’s kind of like

01:00:32.530 –> 01:00:35.650
an anthology, but it’s really a story told in

01:00:35.650 –> 01:00:38.230
multiple chapters and Ghost Stories is basically

01:00:38.230 –> 01:00:41.829
that. And, you know, it delivers on some scares,

01:00:42.150 –> 01:00:45.469
but… um it’s also just kind of a sort of more

01:00:45.469 –> 01:00:49.530
interesting kind of unusual take at ghost stories

01:00:49.530 –> 01:00:51.630
and and i really enjoyed it i don’t want to like

01:00:51.630 –> 01:00:53.610
give away too much but it essentially follows

01:00:53.610 –> 01:00:57.750
this guy as he uh he’s a skeptic and uh as he

01:00:57.750 –> 01:01:01.940
goes on this uh He’s been sent on a quest to

01:01:01.940 –> 01:01:05.079
examine these three stories by somebody that

01:01:05.079 –> 01:01:09.280
he looks up to that is meant to show him that

01:01:09.280 –> 01:01:11.760
he’s wrong and that there are supernatural things.

01:01:12.239 –> 01:01:14.340
And there’s a big twist at the end. I’m not gonna

01:01:14.340 –> 01:01:17.280
spoil it, but I highly recommend it. Really enjoyed

01:01:17.280 –> 01:01:19.719
it. It was a good, fresh perspective on a horror

01:01:19.719 –> 01:01:21.639
movie, I thought. And thanks for recommending

01:01:21.639 –> 01:01:30.269
that to me, Peter. And that will bring us to

01:01:30.269 –> 01:01:32.190
the end of today’s inaugural episode of Nightmare

01:01:32.190 –> 01:01:35.050
Logic. If you enjoyed today’s show, please consider

01:01:35.050 –> 01:01:37.630
subscribing and tell all your friends. And stop

01:01:37.630 –> 01:01:40.150
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01:01:40.150 –> 01:01:42.170
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01:01:42.170 –> 01:01:45.230
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01:01:45.590 –> 01:01:47.750
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01:01:47.750 –> 01:01:50.329
Logic Pod, our theme music written and composed

01:01:50.329 –> 01:01:53.530
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01:01:53.530 –> 01:01:56.070
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01:01:56.070 –> 01:01:56.449
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